The interview does mention some potentially triggering topics, including self-harm. Please exercise caution.
As an Austrian, why did you choose to set your movie in Germany?
Sebastian Meise: The movie is about paragraph 175 that prohibits same-sex relationships. The paragraph existed in both countries, Austria and Germany for over a hundred years. Even though the Nazis strengthened it in 1935, it remained more or less the same since the Austrian-Hungarian Empire established it in 1871. We decided to place the film in Germany, because it is a bigger country and more people were affected. But it could be set in Austria as well.
That makes sense.You mentioned that there are a lot of similarities between Germany and Austria. What are some differences that you see in how Germany and Austria have marginalized and continue to marginalize the LGBTQ+ community?
Germany and Austria have marginalized the LGBTQ+ community in the same way. We can trace the development of paragraph 175 as an example. The paragraph was amended in 1969 in West Germany and in 1971 in Austria. In addition, the law was abolished in 1994 in Germany and in 2001 in Austria. As is clear in this case, Austria tends to follow Germany’s lead.
Can you tell us about what research you did for this movie?
We used many sources for our research, including a book about queer history in Hamburg. In this book, we read stories about how the Allies liberated LGBTQ+ people from concentration camps and then put them directly into prison after the war. We were all surprised, because we had only ever considered the Allies as the “good guys.” In school, we learned about how the Allies freed us from facism, but never how they considered it a capital crime to be queer. We were astonished that the Allies would decide to keep this paragraph, let alone to allow this imprisonment. This book was fundamental to our research. We also interviewed people who were criminalized in the 1960s.
What other types of sources did you use besides interviews?
We used archives, such as Berlin's Gay Museum. We also went to a famous queer cafe in Vienna. There, we talked to older couples. One couple in particular stood out to me. When we asked one of the partners about their experiences, he started telling us a story about how he was imprisoned when he was about 20 years old. His partner turned to him, shocked. It turns out that his partner had never heard the story before, though they had been together since the 1970s. This shows how much of a taboo it is for the queer community, because they were so stigmatized that they may choose not to talk about their traumatic experiences with their own partners. Because they held back for so long, since the paragraph was only recently abolished, many were eager to share their experiences with us. We read a lot on how the prison system was back during the war and in the early post-war era. We learned that the prison system changed in 1968 due to major Strafrechtreform, so we decided to focus on prisons before 1968.
Thank you for sharing that with us, especially the story about the older couple. Can you explain your reasoning behind choosing to set the majority of the film in a prison?
Many of the scenes in the first draft of the script were set outside. For example, we had scenes at Hans’ job and in his different apartments. However, we quickly realized that Hans’ whole life is essentially in prison. For Hans, serving time in prison doesn’t make him a better person. Unlike thieves who can choose to change their habits after going to prison, Hans can’t change, because he will always be who he is. The minute he walks out of prison, he is immediately hunted down again. Because Hans is a criminal for life, we decided to tell his story from the prison. We also decided to show his time in prison in a non-chronological fashion,
because we wanted to create the feeling that he’s trapped in a time loop. There is no escape.
I thought it was very effective in the film. Why did you choose to set the movie in that particular prison?
We were looking for a prison that fit the time the best. We wanted to find a prison that was built with a lot of open space in the middle so that the prison staff could watch everything from one point on a higher level. It was interesting, because in East Germany, we found ten empty prisons. We just had to pick one. It is changing a bit now, since many old prisons are being rebuilt. For example, the prison in Große Freiheit is being rebuilt into a youth hostel.
That's quite a change. Can you describe your process of directing? How were you able to bring out the actors’ emotional connection to the characters?
I do not have a specific system. We just schedule, talk, rehearse, and shoot. It’s very conventional filmmaking.
How long did it take to direct the movie from start to finish?
It only took about eight weeks to shoot the entire movie, but the pandemic shut us down in the middle of the shooting. We took a six month break during the pandemic before we continued filming.
Can you speak on your choice to have Hans develop an intimate relationship with three different characters? Why, for example, did you not decide to have Hans only connect with one or two characters?
The main story is about Hans and Viktor. All of the supporting characters like Leo and Oskar contribute to the main story and help Hans and Viktor develop their relationship.
What role do you think Oskar and Leo play? How would you describe their role within the movie?
In the 1940s, Hans was a broken man. He just came out of the concentration camp. His life is basically in ruins when he meets Viktor and Viktor helps him cover up his number with a tattoo. Hans comes back in the 1950s. He’s full of energy, because he is completely in love with Oskar. Hans is more rebellious and acts like James Dean. When Oskar commits suicide, Hans is heartbroken. Hans goes back to prison in the 1960s, dejected. Then, he meets Leo who helps him get his fire again and helps him realize that love might still be possible. Hans soon realizes that their love could destroy Leo’s life, as Hans believed his love destroyed Hans’ life. Hans claims that he forced himself onto Leo so that Leo can go back to his normal life. With Leo gone, there is more room for Hans and Viktor to develop a relationship. All of the characters in the movie deal with the idea of freedom. Oskar chooses the biggest freedom: to take his own life. Leo is able to escape prison, but he is arguably less free on the outside, because he has to go back into the closet. Hans and Viktor’s relationship also deals with the idea of freedom or what freedom
could be.
I think that's really powerful. How was your decision to have Hans develop a relationship with Viktor, a murder, made? Why did you decide to have Hans develop a relationship with Viktor specifically?
The story is about love and love is not about categories. We define ourselves in terms of society. All of these institutions like science and medicine tell us who we are. However, as individuals, we aren’t gay or straight. These categories don’t exist on the individual level. Hans and Viktor put these social constructs aside. They are just two people who develop a relationship and mean a lot to each other.
Is that why you waited until the end of the movie to have Viktor explain his reasoning for going to prison?
No, that was because Hans is never interested in what Viktor does and he never judges him. If you recall, in the last half of the movie, Viktor asks Hans why he never asked him why he was in prison. To Hans, it doesn’t matter what he did.
What inspired your decision to introduce Oskar relatively late in the movie and to dwell on his relationship with Hans for a brief period of time?
I had a feeling that it would be best to introduce Oskar later in the movie. But I can say that Oskar’s character was so crucial, because it connected to Hans’ story with Viktor. Viktor is the one who is there for Hans when he learns that Oskar committed suicide.
I understand. Could you touch on why you decided to direct this movie? What drew you to this particular cause?
It is hard to put it into words. However, one reason I decided to direct this film is because I did not know much about paragraph 175. Of course I knew that homosexuality was illegal at one point, but I didn’t understand the dimension of persecution that there was. A lot of people I talked to about the movie, even some in the queer community, had also never heard about the paragraph. I also chose to direct the film, because I connected with the characters. Ultimately, the story is about more than queer people being imprisoned. It’s about love.